Discussion:
Rossi cold fusion device appearing less and less like a scam....
(too old to reply)
sno
2011-07-30 07:43:36 UTC
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Article and interview 21 July 2011:

Check it out:

http://pesn.com/2011/07/21/9501874_Rossis_Self_Sustaining_One_Megawatt_Reactor

I have been following this for about a year, appears to be a very simple
device, table top size.

Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has
determined optimum nickle granular size)

Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.

Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.

Two pumps, one for hydrogen one for water.

Water converted to steam (is a steam generator)

Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.

Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.

Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks
have been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)

Has a hypothesis of how it works using conventional physics, basically
fusion of nickle/hydrogen producing copper. (copper has been found in
nickle after running)

Claims has had a generator running for over a year.

Gamma radiation detected while running, no radiation detected after 20
minutes being turned off.

Has been examined by reputable physicists and no external energy inputs
discovered, except for initial trigger energy/pumps (three hundred watt
constant input, kw's in thermal energy, constant output).

Another company has claimed they have built their own (different....???)
device using nickle/hydrogen, seems to verify rossi's claims.

have fun.....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Tom Potter
2011-07-30 11:46:17 UTC
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Post by sno
http://pesn.com/2011/07/21/9501874_Rossis_Self_Sustaining_One_Megawatt_Reactor
I have been following this for about a year, appears to be a very simple
device, table top size.
Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has determined
optimum nickle granular size)
Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.
Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.
Two pumps, one for hydrogen one for water.
Water converted to steam (is a steam generator)
Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.
Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.
Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks have
been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)
Has a hypothesis of how it works using conventional physics, basically
fusion of nickle/hydrogen producing copper. (copper has been found in
nickle after running)
Claims has had a generator running for over a year.
Gamma radiation detected while running, no radiation detected after 20
minutes being turned off.
Has been examined by reputable physicists and no external energy inputs
discovered, except for initial trigger energy/pumps (three hundred watt
constant input, kw's in thermal energy, constant output).
As you can see from the interview,
Rossi states that a one kilowatt generator would cost $1000.00 to $2000.00,
and that it produces a kilowatt hour for about one cent.

Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator is
$5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.

As there are 8760 hours in a year,
it would take about six years to pay for the generator,
assuming no maintainance or operating costs.

http://pesn.com/2011/07/14/9501869_EV-World_Interviews_Andrea_Rossi/

"H - Exactly. You brought up the issue of... I know people who are in the
energy business will want to add or want to know.. do you have a sense of
what the kilowatt hour cost of a facility will be?

A - One cent.

H - That is not kilowatt hours, that is kilowatts.

A - That is... sorry.. let me correct you. The energy is kilowatts. Kilowatt
is power, so one plant that has a power of one kilowatt is a plant that can
produce up to one kilowatt hour per hour.

H - So typically, when they talk about construction cost of a power plant
they talk about...

A - I said kilowatt. Okay.. so you want to know price per kilowatt. The
price per kilowatt can be one thousand to two thousand dollars."

I wouldn't buy one at that price.
--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://184.105.237.216/~tompotte/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
Jim Wilkins
2011-07-30 13:09:25 UTC
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...
Post by sno
Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has
determined optimum nickle granular size)
Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.
Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.
...
Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.
Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.
Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks
have been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)
If this is true maybe someday one of the Nickel Hydride batteries in your
Prius will go critical.
sno
2011-07-31 00:20:35 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
...
Post by sno
Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has
determined optimum nickle granular size)
Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.
Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.
...
Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.
Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.
Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks
have been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)
If this is true maybe someday one of the Nickel Hydride batteries in your
Prius will go critical.
If this is not a scam then it is more likely people will try to build
one at home, stumble on the correct proportion of hydrogen to nickle
grains causing steam explosions leading to deaths and horrible burns....

(some people probably are already trying)

I wonder if this device is proven, if it will have to be licensed by the
NRC, if it does could be kept out of private individuals hands...as
other nuclear devices are.....

have fun....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
sno
2011-07-30 19:14:09 UTC
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Post by Tom Potter
Post by sno
http://pesn.com/2011/07/21/9501874_Rossis_Self_Sustaining_One_Megawatt_Reactor
I have been following this for about a year, appears to be a very
simple device, table top size.
Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has
determined optimum nickle granular size)
Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.
Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.
Two pumps, one for hydrogen one for water.
Water converted to steam (is a steam generator)
Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.
Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.
Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks
have been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)
Has a hypothesis of how it works using conventional physics, basically
fusion of nickle/hydrogen producing copper. (copper has been found in
nickle after running)
Claims has had a generator running for over a year.
Gamma radiation detected while running, no radiation detected after 20
minutes being turned off.
Has been examined by reputable physicists and no external energy
inputs discovered, except for initial trigger energy/pumps (three
hundred watt constant input, kw's in thermal energy, constant output).
As you can see from the interview,
Rossi states that a one kilowatt generator would cost $1000.00 to $2000.00,
and that it produces a kilowatt hour for about one cent.
Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator
is $5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.
As there are 8760 hours in a year,
it would take about six years to pay for the generator,
assuming no maintainance or operating costs.
http://pesn.com/2011/07/14/9501869_EV-World_Interviews_Andrea_Rossi/
"H - Exactly. You brought up the issue of... I know people who are in
the energy business will want to add or want to know.. do you have a
sense of what the kilowatt hour cost of a facility will be?
A - One cent.
H - That is not kilowatt hours, that is kilowatts.
A - That is... sorry.. let me correct you. The energy is kilowatts.
Kilowatt is power, so one plant that has a power of one kilowatt is a
plant that can produce up to one kilowatt hour per hour.
H - So typically, when they talk about construction cost of a power
plant they talk about...
A - I said kilowatt. Okay.. so you want to know price per kilowatt. The
price per kilowatt can be one thousand to two thousand dollars."
I wouldn't buy one at that price.
I agree....however a power company...or a plant that uses steam may
think differently....

Also if steam is run through a turbine, to produce electricity, there
will be about a 50 percent energy loss....which will raise the cost....
however this is a prototype...and there is no telling what other devices
using this principle will cost.....I would guess his guesstimate is high
since he would want to get the most he can from the original devices.....

have fun.....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
CWatters
2011-07-31 11:06:37 UTC
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Post by Tom Potter
Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator
is $5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.
How much did your last oil or gas furnace cost and how many hours do you
expect it to take to "payback" (if ever)?
Tom Potter
2011-08-06 08:40:04 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by CWatters
Post by Tom Potter
Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator
is $5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.
( Maintenance and operating costs would increase the pay out period. )
Post by CWatters
How much did your last oil or gas furnace cost and how many hours do you
expect it to take to "payback" (if ever)?
I suggest to my pal colin.watters
that before he makes an investment
he should do a discounted rate of return calculation

and if he can do better by investing his money
in securities, real estate, etc.
that he should do so.

To compare investing in a new furnace,
one must consider the savings compounded
over the investment period,
and compare this to other investments available to him.
--
Tom Potter
-----------------
http://www.prioritize.biz/
http://voices.yuku.com/forums/66
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com/siteindex.zhtml
http://184.105.237.216/~tompotte/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
Morris Dovey
2011-08-06 16:05:54 UTC
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Post by Tom Potter
Post by CWatters
Post by Tom Potter
Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt generator
is $5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.
( Maintenance and operating costs would increase the pay out period. )
Post by CWatters
How much did your last oil or gas furnace cost and how many hours do
you expect it to take to "payback" (if ever)?
I suggest to my pal colin.watters
that before he makes an investment
he should do a discounted rate of return calculation
and if he can do better by investing his money
in securities, real estate, etc.
that he should do so.
To compare investing in a new furnace,
one must consider the savings compounded
over the investment period,
and compare this to other investments available to him.
[ reading alt.energy.homepower ]

I'm inclined to leave that MBA-type approach to Tom to evaluate
performance of investments in securities, real estate, and equities.

A semi-retired farmer/stockman (not an MBA) needed a new shop building
but didn't like that a neighbor who had a shop the size he intended to
build was paying just over $900/year to heat his with propane...

...so he spent $2000 for a pair of solar heating panels and installed
those in his shop.

That was in early 2007. After two winters he figured the panels had paid
for themselves in fuel savings - and figures that the post-2009
(projected) savings will exceed the original cost of the entire structure.

I wouldn't waste the bandwidth to tell this story except that back in
2007 (and since) there've been folks making your exact same argument for
doing that calculation (usually with their numbers) and who've been
doing their utmost to discourage people from putting their money into
alternative technologies.

None of the methods of calculation I've seen has included a "wisdom"
factor to account for the effects of stupid/foolish behavior on the part
of the relatively small population of corporate/political
decision-makers who (randomly) produce (random) "unintended consequences".

Your formula is incomplete; therefore can only be reliably predictive in
an imaginary universe in which relationships are essentially
static/invariant. Advising people to do the calculation and then act as
their own wisdom dictates seems twisty/humorous. :-)

Back to the topic of the thread...

I've decided to build some of these little buggers because the materials
cost of a reactor is less than the materials cost of a solar
concentrator and tracker needed to power the engine/generator I've been
working on. FWIW, I'm buying new materials at retail and it appears that
the 5kW reactor cost (which includes the first 4+ continuous years worth
of Ni fuel) will end up being in the neighborhood of US$150 - and the µC
control/logging/recording subsystem will probably cost about that much
more. If I build my own hydrogen generator and am able to use the same
µC to control delivery pressure, that will add a similar cost increment.

I rather like that the only waste products are (non-radioactive) copper
metal and pure oxygen...
--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/ top link is Heating Panel Project
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Engines/Hydradyne/Fusion.html Fusion Reactor
Jim Wilkins
2011-08-06 18:55:51 UTC
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Post by Morris Dovey
...
I've decided to build some of these little buggers because the materials
cost of a reactor is less than the materials cost of a solar concentrator
and tracker needed to power the engine/generator I've been working on.
FWIW, I'm buying new materials at retail and it appears that the 5kW
reactor cost (which includes the first 4+ continuous years worth of Ni
fuel) will end up being in the neighborhood of US$150 - and the µC
control/logging/recording subsystem will probably cost about that much
more. If I build my own hydrogen generator and am able to use the same µC
to control delivery pressure, that will add a similar cost increment.
I rather like that the only waste products are (non-radioactive) copper
metal and pure oxygen...
--
Morris Dovey
I facetiously suggested that NiMH batteries could go critical because they
are essentially what you propose. Nickel powder has been used as a
high-pressure hydrogenation catalyst for a very long time, so it's strange
that no one else noticed this.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/catalysis/introduction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process

BTW nickel and iron are the MOST stable nuclei, the final end result of both
fusion and fission chains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_peak

Some nickel ore contains copper that isn't easily removed, the metal in
coins for example. Finding copper in nickel is no surprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel

This reminds me of Donovan's Electric Banana prank of the 60's that came out
shortly after the discovery that banana peels contain a fire retardant. You
can't dry and smoke them because they don't burn.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-08-06 20:37:03 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
I facetiously suggested that NiMH batteries could go critical because they
are essentially what you propose. Nickel powder has been used as a
high-pressure hydrogenation catalyst for a very long time, so it's strange
that no one else noticed this.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/catalysis/introduction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process
BTW nickel and iron are the MOST stable nuclei, the final end result of both
fusion and fission chains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_peak
Some nickel ore contains copper that isn't easily removed, the metal in
coins for example. Finding copper in nickel is no surprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel
There's a lot here that doesn't appear to be well-understood and that
observations made of effects that weren't predicted. This whole scenario
/could/ be a scam - or it might be that Rossi found a "hole" in our
understanding of physics and has managed to exploit it.

I don't really know which, and the only way to know for sure appears to
be building a flexible test apparatus and seeing if his results can be
independently duplicated.

If I can't produce at least a reasonable approximation to his results,
that may not say much either way and the only downside is that I wasted
my own time and money - but if I succeed, then while the physicists
argue about why it works I will have an additional heat source for the
small engine/generator that I want to build.

The filamentary nickel powder is .999 pure before use, so finding
approximately 10% copper and 11% iron in the post-reaction residue would
seem significant - especially so since the reaction vessel was reported
to be stainless steel.

My understanding of stainless is that it is made by adding nickel,
chromium, and sometimes molybdenum to iron. The presence of copper seems
consistent with the described transmutation of nickel, but I'm a bit
puzzled/concerned by that amount of iron. One of the possibilities is
that there may be a fission reaction alongside the fusion reaction.
Another is that transmutation of nickel at the inner surface of the
chamber is producing some kind of a structural degradation of the
reaction chamber wall. Each of these possibilities point to a different
hazard that, if real, we need to know more about.

Finding 10% copper in what started out 99.9% nickel, if not necessarily
surprising, is at least interesting. :-)

Nearly all of the on-line articles have been incorporated into (or
referenced in) the Wikipedia article at

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

I'm absolutely dazzled - it would never have occurred to me to smoke a
banana! :-D
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Engines/
sno
2011-08-06 21:43:54 UTC
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Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Jim Wilkins
I facetiously suggested that NiMH batteries could go critical because they
are essentially what you propose. Nickel powder has been used as a
high-pressure hydrogenation catalyst for a very long time, so it's strange
that no one else noticed this.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/catalysis/introduction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process
BTW nickel and iron are the MOST stable nuclei, the final end result of both
fusion and fission chains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_peak
Some nickel ore contains copper that isn't easily removed, the metal in
coins for example. Finding copper in nickel is no surprise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel
There's a lot here that doesn't appear to be well-understood and that
observations made of effects that weren't predicted. This whole scenario
/could/ be a scam - or it might be that Rossi found a "hole" in our
understanding of physics and has managed to exploit it.
I don't really know which, and the only way to know for sure appears to
be building a flexible test apparatus and seeing if his results can be
independently duplicated.
If I can't produce at least a reasonable approximation to his results,
that may not say much either way and the only downside is that I wasted
my own time and money - but if I succeed, then while the physicists
argue about why it works I will have an additional heat source for the
small engine/generator that I want to build.
The filamentary nickel powder is .999 pure before use, so finding
approximately 10% copper and 11% iron in the post-reaction residue would
seem significant - especially so since the reaction vessel was reported
to be stainless steel.
My understanding of stainless is that it is made by adding nickel,
chromium, and sometimes molybdenum to iron. The presence of copper seems
consistent with the described transmutation of nickel, but I'm a bit
puzzled/concerned by that amount of iron. One of the possibilities is
that there may be a fission reaction alongside the fusion reaction.
Another is that transmutation of nickel at the inner surface of the
chamber is producing some kind of a structural degradation of the
reaction chamber wall. Each of these possibilities point to a different
hazard that, if real, we need to know more about.
Finding 10% copper in what started out 99.9% nickel, if not necessarily
surprising, is at least interesting. :-)
Nearly all of the on-line articles have been incorporated into (or
referenced in) the Wikipedia article at
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
I'm absolutely dazzled - it would never have occurred to me to smoke a
banana! :-D
I can't believe I missed the wikipedia article....thanks much for the
link......have fun...sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Jim Wilkins
2011-08-06 23:21:00 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
...
Nearly all of the on-line articles have been incorporated into (or
referenced in) the Wikipedia article at
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
If I was hired to fake the Feb 2011 demo I'd swap the faucet handles and
draw the "cooling" water from the hot tap, being careful to measure the
input temperature from cold water initially in the pipe, then quickly
switching the display to the output side. The apparatus itself would
withstand close examination afterwards, but the sink wouldn't.

Chemistry and magic tricks became very close friends thousands of years ago.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistrymagic/Chemistry_Magic_Tricks.htm
Post by Morris Dovey
I'm absolutely dazzled - it would never have occurred to me to smoke a
banana! :-D
Morris Dovey

Electrical Banana at 2:28 was taken to mean smoking banana peels by the
Beatles hidden-message crowd, despite what he really meant.

I sort of slid into the 1960's art & theatre culture in college after being
asked to build animation equipment for a filmmaker. As his technical
assistant I learned a lot about special effects and illusions.

jsw
macpacheco
2011-08-31 19:44:40 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Morris Dovey
...
I've decided to build some of these little buggers because the materials
cost of a reactor is less than the materials cost of a solar concentrator
and tracker needed to power the engine/generator I've been working on.
FWIW, I'm buying new materials at retail and it appears that the 5kW
reactor cost (which includes the first 4+ continuous years worth of Ni
fuel) will end up being in the neighborhood of US$150 - and the C
control/logging/recording subsystem will probably cost about that much
more. If I build my own hydrogen generator and am able to use the same C
to control delivery pressure, that will add a similar cost increment.
I rather like that the only waste products are (non-radioactive) copper
metal and pure oxygen...
--
Morris Dovey
I facetiously suggested that NiMH batteries could go critical because they
are essentially what you propose. Nickel powder has been used as a
high-pressure hydrogenation catalyst for a very long time, so it's strange
that no one else noticed this.http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/catalysis/introduction.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond_process
BTW nickel and iron are the MOST stable nuclei, the final end result of both
fusion and fission chains.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_peak
Some nickel ore contains copper that isn't easily removed, the metal in
coins for example. Finding copper in nickel is no surprise.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel
This reminds me of Donovan's Electric Banana prank of the 60's that came out
shortly after the discovery that banana peels contain a fire retardant. You
can't dry and smoke them because they don't burn.
jsw
That could be true if you choose to ignore other scientists that have
shown excess energy from Ni-H setups.
For starters:
MIT PhD scientist with 26 patents held: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2735933/posts
His setup yield just 8W excess energy, but his goal was to show that
cold fusion with Ni-H is real, not to compete with Rossi's device.
He does document exactly what he did to arrive at the result, and he
got just 8W excess energy, but for a pretty long time.

Why would a scientist from MIT with 26 patents and a reputation to
uphold would get in the Rossi's aledged scam ?

The real question is how accurate Rossi's numbers are... But that his
reactor works and actually produces energy via cold fusion it already
seems very likely.

A very simple setup would make the energy measurement much easier, set
the water flow to the output is 90C water, so there's negligible steam
output, but the rather large temperature delta along with the water
flow makes measuring power output much more accurate (some tests used
high water flow and very low temperature deltas, some tests generated
steam too cold to be considered dry steam). But regardless, the
plethora of tests point to the impossibility that his demos were
scams. 30cc reactor producing 3W of output for hours... Impossible for
non fusion means.

Marcelo Pacheco - Not a Physicist - Not a scientist
Jim Wilkins
2011-08-31 21:39:27 UTC
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...But regardless, the
plethora of tests point to the impossibility that his demos were
scams. 30cc reactor producing 3W of output for hours... Impossible for
non fusion means.
Marcelo Pacheco - Not a Physicist - Not a scientist

By that logic the plethora of magicians who can pull a coin out of your ear
proves the supernatural.

I don't know if Rossi is real or fake. I merely pointed out that the demo is
extremely easy to rig, by swapping the hot and cold water lines (under the
sink?) so the audience assumes that the reactor heated the water, which
actually was already hot when it entered.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-01 01:43:28 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
I don't know if Rossi is real or fake. I merely pointed out that the demo is
extremely easy to rig, by swapping the hot and cold water lines (under the
sink?) so the audience assumes that the reactor heated the water, which
actually was already hot when it entered.
There's only one way to know for sure and, because I already had a solar
project that's also a good mesh with a small reactor, I ordered up a
pound (~0.45kg) of filamentary nickel powder (and have sent a couple
ounces off to a friend in Belgium so he can do independent testing on
his own).

I'm going to try a somewhat different test setup. Rossi wanted steam to
drive turbines - but I just want to heat a gas to between 380-400°C. I'm
planning a barebones reactor tube with everything exposed. There'll be a
hydrogen line connection, a heater connection, and a (probably
non-contact) IR thermal sensor connected to a µC that controls the
pressure of the hydrogen feed, the power to the heater, and a valve that
will allow dumping the gas in the reactor into a vacuum canister (to
remove the air before introducing hydrogen at the initial startup, and
to kill any runaway reactions). The vacuum line will be a 'T' off the
hydrogen feed line.

This morning I ordered a "BeagleBoard" (there's a description at
www.sparkfun.com/products/9444 in case anyone's interested in playing
along) and have been working on programming to control the reactor and
log reactor temperature and all control actions. I think this little µC
is fast enough to shutdown a runaway reactor before it can hurt itself
(or any bystanders)

The only other significance differences in setup: I'm planning to copper
plate the interior of the stainless steel reactor tube, and I'm planning
to do my initial testing with only a gram or two of nickel in the
reactor and work my way up from there.

When I've had time, I've tried to share particulars at

http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion.html

and the project into which the reactor might fit nicely is at

http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
sno
2011-09-01 04:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Jim Wilkins
I don't know if Rossi is real or fake. I merely pointed out that the demo is
extremely easy to rig, by swapping the hot and cold water lines (under the
sink?) so the audience assumes that the reactor heated the water, which
actually was already hot when it entered.
There's only one way to know for sure and, because I already had a solar
project that's also a good mesh with a small reactor, I ordered up a
pound (~0.45kg) of filamentary nickel powder (and have sent a couple
ounces off to a friend in Belgium so he can do independent testing on
his own).
I'm going to try a somewhat different test setup. Rossi wanted steam to
drive turbines - but I just want to heat a gas to between 380-400°C. I'm
planning a barebones reactor tube with everything exposed. There'll be a
hydrogen line connection, a heater connection, and a (probably
non-contact) IR thermal sensor connected to a µC that controls the
pressure of the hydrogen feed, the power to the heater, and a valve that
will allow dumping the gas in the reactor into a vacuum canister (to
remove the air before introducing hydrogen at the initial startup, and
to kill any runaway reactions). The vacuum line will be a 'T' off the
hydrogen feed line.
This morning I ordered a "BeagleBoard" (there's a description at
www.sparkfun.com/products/9444 in case anyone's interested in playing
along) and have been working on programming to control the reactor and
log reactor temperature and all control actions. I think this little µC
is fast enough to shutdown a runaway reactor before it can hurt itself
(or any bystanders)
The only other significance differences in setup: I'm planning to copper
plate the interior of the stainless steel reactor tube, and I'm planning
to do my initial testing with only a gram or two of nickel in the
reactor and work my way up from there.
When I've had time, I've tried to share particulars at
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion.html
and the project into which the reactor might fit nicely is at
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/
Morris.....do not understand the copper plating of the reactor tube....???

good luck....have fun.....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Morris Dovey
2011-09-01 04:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sno
Morris.....do not understand the copper plating of the reactor tube....???
Rossi provided someone with a sample of his spent fuel. Subsequent
analysis found significant percentages of copper and iron along with the
remaining nickel.

The copper I understand - but there are several possibilities that might
explain the iron, and one of those is that the hydrogen might be
"eating" nickel from the inside of the stainless steel reactor tube from
around the iron, which shows up in the spent fuel residue.

[ One of the other possibilities is that there may be secondary fission
reactions producing iron, but with the apparent lack of any other
isotopes I can't really see that as a probable source. ]

The copper plating on the interior of the reactor is intended as a
non-participating shield for the nickel component of the stainless
steel. It's probably silly of me to take the extra trouble for a
limited-use test apparatus, but I just don't like the idea of a
containment vessel being consumed by the reaction it's supposed to
contain. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
sno
2011-09-01 04:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by sno
Morris.....do not understand the copper plating of the reactor tube....???
Rossi provided someone with a sample of his spent fuel. Subsequent
analysis found significant percentages of copper and iron along with the
remaining nickel.
The copper I understand - but there are several possibilities that might
explain the iron, and one of those is that the hydrogen might be
"eating" nickel from the inside of the stainless steel reactor tube from
around the iron, which shows up in the spent fuel residue.
[ One of the other possibilities is that there may be secondary fission
reactions producing iron, but with the apparent lack of any other
isotopes I can't really see that as a probable source. ]
The copper plating on the interior of the reactor is intended as a
non-participating shield for the nickel component of the stainless
steel. It's probably silly of me to take the extra trouble for a
limited-use test apparatus, but I just don't like the idea of a
containment vessel being consumed by the reaction it's supposed to
contain. :-)
got it....thanks...makes sense....have fun.....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-01 17:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by sno
Morris.....do not understand the copper plating of the reactor tube....???
Rossi provided someone with a sample of his spent fuel. Subsequent
analysis found significant percentages of copper and iron along with the
remaining nickel.
The copper I understand - but there are several possibilities that might
explain the iron, and one of those is that the hydrogen might be "eating"
nickel from the inside of the stainless steel reactor tube from around the
iron, which shows up in the spent fuel residue.
[ One of the other possibilities is that there may be secondary fission
reactions producing iron, but with the apparent lack of any other isotopes
I can't really see that as a probable source. ]
The copper plating on the interior of the reactor is intended as a
non-participating shield for the nickel component of the stainless steel.
It's probably silly of me to take the extra trouble for a limited-use test
apparatus, but I just don't like the idea of a containment vessel being
consumed by the reaction it's supposed to contain. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Any trace of carbon dioxide can be reduced to carbon monoxide by the
hydrogen. CO2 + H2 <> CO + H2O. Carbon monoxide forms a volatile carbonyl
with many metals and will transport them around the reaction vessel and
deposit them in seemingly impossible places.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_carbonyl
You might be better off learning how to fabricate your apparatus out of
Pyrex (borosilicate) glass. Soda (window etc) glass is easier to practice
on, but more likely to shatter on cooling unless carefully annealed. You can
find wires fused vacuum-tight into glass in the base of a light bulb.

FWIW, aluminum is very easy to machine on inexpensive import lathes and
desktop mills.
http://littlemachineshop.com/
Many of its alloys contain copper, which appears as a black residue if you
etch the aluminum with NaOH.

jsw
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-01 11:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
There's only one way to know for sure and, because I already had a solar
project that's also a good mesh with a small reactor, I ordered up a pound
(~0.45kg) of filamentary nickel powder (and have sent a couple ounces off
to a friend in Belgium so he can do independent testing on his own).
...
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
The CCD array in a camera makes a good cheap detector for ionizing radiation
such as gamma rays. Neutrons are more difficult. Possibly a night-vision
scope would work, but I'm not about to inflame the suspicions of Homeland
Security by researching it further on line. I already can hear office-noise
crosstalk on the dialup phone line.

I think sewage treatment plants have Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometers to
measure trace metal contamination. Do-it-yourself wet chemical techniques
aren't that difficult but perhaps not sensitive enough. The type of lab
weighing scale you might find surplus resolves down to micrograms.

Thermocouples:
http://www.omega.com/temperature/tsc.html

I've used glass-encapsulated thermistor probes to measure the temperature of
a liquid I couldn't afford to contaminate.

Home electroplating kits:
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/index.html
The nickel deposit may not be chemically pure.

Good luck with it
jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-01 16:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
The CCD array in a camera makes a good cheap detector for ionizing radiation
such as gamma rays. Neutrons are more difficult. Possibly a night-vision
scope would work, but I'm not about to inflame the suspicions of Homeland
Security by researching it further on line. I already can hear office-noise
crosstalk on the dialup phone line.
I think that for my purposes beta and gamma ray detection would be
enough - and might be a worthwhile addition to the plan. Although the
physics-types might like more detail, it'd probably be adequate to be
able to show a difference between normal background counts and anything
attributable to a reaction. I need to learn more - but just offhand,
could anyone suggest a "normal" gamma background count range might be?

My (uneducated) guess would be that an increase in gamma count might
presage an increase in measured temperature and might provide means to
better control operation and improve safety during testing.

DHS is probably a bit twitchy about discussion of anything new in
nuclear physics, but I suppose that's part of their job description. Let
'em twitch - this genie has left the bottle. If they have questions
they're welcome to e-mail or post here - just like everyone else. :-)

[ In the FWIW category, my top 10 web site visitors in August were US,
RU, CN, JP, KR, CA, IN, DE, AU, and UK in the order of most-to-least
hits. I'm pretty sure we have lurkers. ]
Post by Jim Wilkins
I think sewage treatment plants have Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometers to
measure trace metal contamination. Do-it-yourself wet chemical techniques
aren't that difficult but perhaps not sensitive enough. The type of lab
weighing scale you might find surplus resolves down to micrograms.
If I have evidence of a sustainable fusion reaction, I'd guess that
access to really good equipment (and really skilled lab technicians)
will become a non-issue. :-)
Post by Jim Wilkins
http://www.omega.com/temperature/tsc.html
I've used glass-encapsulated thermistor probes to measure the temperature of
a liquid I couldn't afford to contaminate.
Yuppers - I still have the Omega.com link you gave me a while back when
we were discussing solar panel instrumentation. :-)
Post by Jim Wilkins
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/index.html
The nickel deposit may not be chemically pure.
Thanks! This is one more area in which I need to learn more.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Good luck with it
Thanks!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-01 17:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Jim Wilkins
The CCD array in a camera makes a good cheap detector for ionizing radiation
such as gamma rays. Neutrons are more difficult. Possibly a night-vision
scope would work, but I'm not about to inflame the suspicions of Homeland
Security by researching it further on line. I already can hear office-noise
crosstalk on the dialup phone line.
I think that for my purposes beta and gamma ray detection would be
enough - and might be a worthwhile addition to the plan. Although the
physics-types might like more detail, it'd probably be adequate to be able
to show a difference between normal background counts and anything
attributable to a reaction. I need to learn more - but just offhand, could
anyone suggest a "normal" gamma background count range might be?
A simple unshielded detector will respond to all ionizing radiation that
passes into it, not just gamma. The strongest signal may come from the
potassium in your body, about 4-5000 decays/second, and some of them emit
antimatter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-40

IIRC a Geiger counter ticks very roughly once a second from the natural
background. Here is the EPA RADNET website:
http://www.epa.gov/radnet/
Post by Morris Dovey
If I have evidence of a sustainable fusion reaction, I'd guess that access
to really good equipment (and really skilled lab technicians) will become
a non-issue. :-)
Don't risk overexposing yourself to get that evidence.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-02 15:40:00 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
IIRC a Geiger counter ticks very roughly once a second from the natural
http://www.epa.gov/radnet/
Browsed around their site (and a number of others), but didn't find much
in the way of helpful specifics. :-(

I think I'm suffering from the problem that in order to ask a good
question, I would already need to know at least half of the answer...

I went ahead and ordered a GMC200 Geiger Muller Counter Nuclear
Radiation Detector on eBay, which I can connect to my little µC through
the audio input port.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Don't risk overexposing yourself to get that evidence.
I promise to do the best I can, given that I'm operating /way/ outside
my knowledge and experience - and that I'm building a prototype nuclear
reactor on a Social Security budget. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
sno
2011-09-02 16:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Jim Wilkins
IIRC a Geiger counter ticks very roughly once a second from the natural
http://www.epa.gov/radnet/
Browsed around their site (and a number of others), but didn't find much
in the way of helpful specifics. :-(
I think I'm suffering from the problem that in order to ask a good
question, I would already need to know at least half of the answer...
I went ahead and ordered a GMC200 Geiger Muller Counter Nuclear
Radiation Detector on eBay, which I can connect to my little µC through
the audio input port.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Don't risk overexposing yourself to get that evidence.
I promise to do the best I can, given that I'm operating /way/ outside
my knowledge and experience - and that I'm building a prototype nuclear
reactor on a Social Security budget. :-)
Keep a camera handy for when the NRC shows up at your door in nuclear
protective suits....<grin>

Also you can get some radiation signs here....<grin>

www.myradiationsign.com/

What you are doing reminds me of when I was into rockets and
explosives.....thanks for the memories....

have fun.....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Morris Dovey
2011-09-02 17:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sno
Keep a camera handy for when the NRC shows up at your door in nuclear
protective suits....<grin>
Good thought. I should probably mount a video camera in the shop to
capture the expressions of disappointment at the lack of unstable
isotopes. :-)
Post by sno
Also you can get some radiation signs here....<grin>
www.myradiationsign.com/
In an attempt to maintain some semblance of responsible behavior, I've
already downloaded a radiation trefoil from wikipedia to hang out
whenever testing is underway.
Post by sno
What you are doing reminds me of when I was into rockets and
explosives.....thanks for the memories....
I grew up in a petroleum camp in the Arabian desert - so playing with
rockets and explosives wasn't an option. I had just enough experience
with explosives in the Army to dispel any fascination with them as a
source of entertainment.

A really large part of my effort (and expense) with this project is to
avoid hazard - and, quite frankly, I'm not particularly enjoying the
prospect of having even a small hydrogen tank in the shop.

The controller is shaping up such that only about 5% of my software is
involved in test sequencing and control - all the rest is more or less
directed toward anticipating or recognizing any (possibly) hazardous
condition which might justify an immediate shut-down.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-02 18:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
...
A really large part of my effort (and expense) with this project is to
avoid hazard - and, quite frankly, I'm not particularly enjoying the
prospect of having even a small hydrogen tank in the shop.
Morris Dovey
You can generate hydrogen reasonably safely and cheaply from aluminum foil
or machining chips and Drano (NaOH). The bubbles release an aerosol
containing NaOH so you need to at least filter and probably dry the gas. The
reaction is quite exothermic and will boil the water if the lye solution is
too concentrated.

This is the end product if you neutralize the caustic with excess aluminum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_aluminate
http://www.deltachemical.com/PDFS/DeltaSodiumAluminate.pdf

I wish it had led me to a practical aluminum battery.

jsw
sno
2011-09-02 18:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Morris Dovey
...
A really large part of my effort (and expense) with this project is to
avoid hazard - and, quite frankly, I'm not particularly enjoying the
prospect of having even a small hydrogen tank in the shop.
Morris Dovey
You can generate hydrogen reasonably safely and cheaply from aluminum foil
or machining chips and Drano (NaOH). The bubbles release an aerosol
containing NaOH so you need to at least filter and probably dry the gas. The
reaction is quite exothermic and will boil the water if the lye solution is
too concentrated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_aluminate
http://www.deltachemical.com/PDFS/DeltaSodiumAluminate.pdf
I wish it had led me to a practical aluminum battery.
jsw
Morris....another possibility for the iron in the residue is that it is
the catalyst that he uses to speed up the reaction....

have fun...sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Morris Dovey
2011-09-02 18:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sno
Morris....another possibility for the iron in the residue is that it is
the catalyst that he uses to speed up the reaction....
You're right - and that's a possibility to which I hadn't given (enough)
serious consideration...

...and I'm not sure that his catalyst _speeds up_ the reaction. In his
earlier efforts Rossi reportedly produced explosions and experienced
instability at higher temperatures. It might be that his "catalyst" is
an damping/buffering agent...

Lots to learn :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-02 21:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
...
...and I'm not sure that his catalyst _speeds up_ the reaction. In his
earlier efforts Rossi reportedly produced explosions and experienced
instability at higher temperatures. It might be that his "catalyst" is an
damping/buffering agent...
Morris Dovey
Or it might be that a little air slipped into the hydrogen, or was pushed.

jsw
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-02 17:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Jim Wilkins
IIRC a Geiger counter ticks very roughly once a second from the natural
http://www.epa.gov/radnet/
Browsed around their site (and a number of others), but didn't find much
in the way of helpful specifics. :-(
They suck 60m^3 / Hr of outdoor air through a particle filter and then
measure it, so there isn't a good correlation to the continuous background
radiation you might see indoors. One click each second is 3600 counts per
hour, pretty close to what they detect..
Post by Morris Dovey
I went ahead and ordered a GMC200 Geiger Muller Counter Nuclear Radiation
Detector on eBay, which I can connect to my little µC through the audio
input port.
This may give you an idea of radiation shielding and energy level filtering
principles:
http://www.sprawls.org/ppmi2/RADPEN/
Gamma ray energies are a few orders of magnitude higher than medical X-rays.
I think a sheet of 1/16" aluminum will block almost everything that isn't a
gamma or cosmic ray. My only hands-on experience here is with incidental
X-rays from a high voltage diode tester I built.
Post by Morris Dovey
...and that I'm building a prototype nuclear reactor on a Social Security
budget. :-)
You hope you are. I mentioned that chemical engineers have been passing
hydrogen through nickel etc catalysts and carefully measuring the results
for 100+ years without noticing this, and you probably already own hydrogen
mixed with nickel in NiMH batteries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-metal_hydride_battery
I've posted simple explanatiions for the heated water and the supposedly
excess copper and iron found in the nickel afterwards.

An example from 1909:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

This discovery stimulated the search for practical room temperature fusion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon-catalyzed_fusion
Hydrogen does dissociate and adsorb onto the atoms of many metals.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-02 18:31:26 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Morris Dovey
...and that I'm building a prototype nuclear reactor on a Social Security
budget. :-)
You hope you are. I mentioned that chemical engineers have been passing
hydrogen through nickel etc catalysts and carefully measuring the results
for 100+ years without noticing this, and you probably already own hydrogen
mixed with nickel in NiMH batteries.
You're right: I /hope/ I am - but I've decided to risk the possible
disappointment and give it my best try.

Having made that decision I've adopted the mindset that the endeavor to
produce a fusion reaction /will/ succeed and that all possible hazards
are to be treated as real and probable. Anything less would seem
irresponsible.

I'm also cultivating an attitude that the experiment will still be a
(less exciting) success if there is no fusion reaction at any pressure
and temperature combination I'm able to test. At the least I'll be able
to produce some specific data about what did /not/ work.

Yuppers - I have NiMH batteries right here in my keyboard, mouse, and
trackpad. Handy little buggers, but I wish they'd stay charged longer.

(While I was writing this UPS brought the control computer. It looks
just like the photos at www.sparkfun.com/products/9444 and it's hard for
me to imagine that it only needs 2W)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-02 21:02:32 UTC
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Raw Message
...> (While I was writing this UPS brought the control computer. It looks
just like the photos at www.sparkfun.com/products/9444 and it's hard for
me to imagine that it only needs 2W)
Morris Dovey
Impressively powerful!
What are you using for control and data acquisition?

I've been looking into the slower, cheaper end of the ARM family:
http://www.futurlec.com/ET-ARM_Stamp.shtml

The lab test setups I've inherited with temp R&D jobs generally used an
older desktop or laptop and controlled the external hardware with either
direct connections to the parallel port or a CAN, SMBus or I2C converter.
It's really nice to be able to record CSV-format data to a huge disk and
port it into Excel, or step through the control program or watch variable
values change in a Windows or Unix GUI.

Even DOS is adequate and it and QBASIC scream on a multiGHz processor. DOS
gives you full low-level control of the machine's legacy hardware, with only
timer interrupts to avoid. The DOS7 on a Win98 boot disk is good enough. I
hacked a Dell hidden utility partition (with Knoppix) to not just autorun
the diagnostics and then exit, and put my DOS stuff there, so F12 boots to
it. Full hardware control is necessary to use all the parallel port bits,
but not the others.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-02 23:07:23 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
What are you using for control and data acquisition?
Custom code (all written in C). There really isn't much data acquisition
to be done - just current reactor tube temperature and event pulses from
the radiation detector. I'm planning to drive a micro-stepper to twist
the handle on the hydrogen tank's regulator and haven't yet decided how
I want to control the heater power. I suspect the vacuum dump will be
via solenoid operated valve controlled by a single bit output.

Nearly all of the code involves programming to "learn" about reactor
behavior using a sequence of tests (beginning with a sequence without
hydrogen) at increasing pressures and temperatures, where with each test
the software becomes "smarter" and better able to predict and recognize
conditions of interest (including and perhaps especially those
indicating that a fast shutdown would be prudent).
Post by Jim Wilkins
http://www.futurlec.com/ET-ARM_Stamp.shtml
I like it. Philips has done some interesting work. One of my more
interesting/enjoyable projects was working on a MIPS SOC in their lab in
San Jose. I enjoyed the place, the people, and the work so much that I
was sad to leave.

I have a friend in Belgium who seems to be having a love affair with the
Arduino. :-) You might also find that interesting.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The lab test setups I've inherited with temp R&D jobs generally used an
older desktop or laptop and controlled the external hardware with either
direct connections to the parallel port or a CAN, SMBus or I2C converter.
It's really nice to be able to record CSV-format data to a huge disk and
port it into Excel, or step through the control program or watch variable
values change in a Windows or Unix GUI.
I think I've been pretty lucky because I've nearly always had
state-of-the-art equipment to work with - tho I did use MSDOS as the
base for my CNC projects.

<grin> I'm a blinking lights kind of guy - I like real time graphic
displays, but this time around I think I'll let the computer do all the
watching and responding. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Morris Dovey
2011-09-06 05:20:01 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Morris Dovey
this time around I think I'll let the computer do all the
watching and responding. :-)
I've been a bit short on time to work on this, but have posted a first
rough draft of some of the test control code at

http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion/

Not yet present is the code to monitor gamma radiation, and the code to
watch for thermal deviations from a standard (no fusion) heating curve.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-06 12:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Morris Dovey
this time around I think I'll let the computer do all the
watching and responding. :-)
I've been a bit short on time to work on this, but have posted a first
rough draft of some of the test control code at
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion/
Not yet present is the code to monitor gamma radiation, and the code to
watch for thermal deviations from a standard (no fusion) heating curve.
Morris Dovey
I examined it to see how you coded open-sensor detection and PID temperature
control. Here's a PID sample to build on:
http://www.embeddedheaven.com/pid-control-algorithm-c-language.htm

My temperature monitor shows 18C with an open input. For a critical
application I'd bias it to indicate an impossibly low temperature if a
sensor or connection failed.

Can you recommend a reasonably good freeware C development system for
Windows? I've hit a few dead ends looking for one to replace DOS QBasic
without losing much of its low-level PC hardware access. I've written a fair
amount of Pascal on a VAX and PDP-11 and a whole lot of 8080 assembly
(including the editor/assembler itself) but have little experience with C or
x86 assembly and need beginner tutorials.

So far I use the serial ports to read analog values from the DI-194 and
Radio Shack multimeter, and the parallel port for digital I/O. I wrote
polling (vs looping) QBasic port drivers to operate them all simultaneously.
The PC runs Win2000 on a FAT32 drive which both DOS and W2K can see. However
I can't add newer USB hardware.

FYI, I found these $10 isolated current sensors to use with my voltage-only
data logger:
http://www.gmw.com/magnetic_sensors/asahi/current-sensors-HA.html

They would confirm that your heater is actually working and give you a more
accurate measurement of its power than just a voltage reading.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-06 15:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
My temperature monitor shows 18C with an open input. For a critical
application I'd bias it to indicate an impossibly low temperature if a
sensor or connection failed.
For this application, I've decided that /any/ failure will result in an
immediate and unconditional reactor shut-down. My biggest challenge is
finding/designing hardware with "friendly" failure modes.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Can you recommend a reasonably good freeware C development system for
Windows? I've hit a few dead ends looking for one to replace DOS QBasic
without losing much of its low-level PC hardware access. I've written a fair
amount of Pascal on a VAX and PDP-11 and a whole lot of 8080 assembly
(including the editor/assembler itself) but have little experience with C or
x86 assembly and need beginner tutorials.
Since I've had absolutely no desire to develop anything to run under
Windows, I ended up using the Vim editor (in windows gui mode) to write
MSDOS code that I compiled in a command window using TurboC, and later
lcc. All three packages can be downloaded at no cost and without any
requirements for registration. (After 10 years of trouble-free use I did
make a donation to support the Vim author's effort to help kids in
Uganda because it struck me as appropriate - and got back a very nice
Thank You letter.)

I have a strong preference for POSIX environments (unix, Linux, Solaris,
etc) and the Gnu toolchain. One of the first things I did on this iMac
was to download my favorite Gnu tools and install VMware's Fusion
package. When I need to do something windozy, I start up a virtual
machine and run Win/XP in a sandbox (with VM settings that don't allow
Windows to even peek outside the VM unless, and only to the extent that,
I allow).

Apple's OS/X (a flavor of BSD unix) allows me up to 16 "desktops" and I
can switch between 'em instantly, and so once it's up I just leave XP
running on one of them.

The BeagleBoard used in this project will probably be running Linux. :-)
Post by Jim Wilkins
So far I use the serial ports to read analog values from the DI-194 and
polling (vs looping) QBasic port drivers to operate them all simultaneously.
The PC runs Win2000 on a FAT32 drive which both DOS and W2K can see. However
I can't add newer USB hardware.
I've felt your pain - and you have my sympathies - and the only
constructive advice I can offer is to install Linux and tough your way
up the learning curve to the point where you can write any special
device drivers you need/want. There's an amazing support network
available just for the asking. Setting up your computer as a dual-boot
(Windows/Linux) is quick and easy, and allows full use of both systems
on a single machine.
Post by Jim Wilkins
FYI, I found these $10 isolated current sensors to use with my voltage-only
http://www.gmw.com/magnetic_sensors/asahi/current-sensors-HA.html
They would confirm that your heater is actually working and give you a more
accurate measurement of its power than just a voltage reading.
Thanks! I've bookmarked both links for reference.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-06 17:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Can you recommend a reasonably good freeware C development system for
Windows? ...
Since I've had absolutely no desire to develop anything to run under
Windows, I ended up using the Vim editor (in windows gui mode) to write
MSDOS code that I compiled in a command window using TurboC, and later
lcc. ... Morris Dovey
I've had to learn and use whatever the engineer or the company preferred,
from VMS through HP1000, Apollo, Novell, MacOS to Solaris. Usually the cost
and frustration of avoiding Microsoft came to exceed that of using them and
DOS or Windows would slowly and quietly creep onto PCs. Perhaps I could
write physical and data link layer device drivers, but my time was too
valuable cleaning up and detailing rough schematics, laying out and
assembling high-speed SMT circuit boards, and debugging and testing them, a
combination of skills that's rare even in large electronic engineering
firms. They didn't let me play programmer until all that was completed.

The main problem is that Windows, like English, is the defacto common
language that everyone who seriously wants to do business must accommodate,
before and maybe instead of writing for other operating systems. I can't
even find unix drivers for the Winmodems in my PCs.

The customized lab setups I had to maintain when I took a contract R&D job
were generally built around a surplus front-office machine with Windows
already installed. The added hardware and software kept IT from touching
them so I had to be the administrator, and stay relatively current at it,
not wander off into some variant of Debian for my home projects.

As one extreme example an Apple Certified Programmer quoted me three months
to write a "proper" Mac Nubus driver for a custom A/D board I built. Then he
left. I made it do all it really needed to with four lines of assembly code
generated in LabVIEW.

jsw
sno
2011-09-06 19:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Rossi biography's and other stuff....new...5 sep...

Looks like there is a race starting...other companies trying to be the
first...

http://ecatfusion.com/andrea-rossi-2

have fun....sno
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-06 21:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sno
Rossi biography's and other stuff....new...5 sep...
Looks like there is a race starting...other companies trying to be the
first...
http://ecatfusion.com/andrea-rossi-2
have fun....sno
He needs something new and well defined to patent and sell, he can't just
say he repeated a 100 year old process and magically got different results.

jsw
sno
2011-09-06 22:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by sno
Rossi biography's and other stuff....new...5 sep...
Looks like there is a race starting...other companies trying to be the
first...
http://ecatfusion.com/andrea-rossi-2
have fun....sno
He needs something new and well defined to patent and sell, he can't just
say he repeated a 100 year old process and magically got different results.
jsw
You may be right...if you read through all the things on the page I
linked to it say he is delaying the demonstration in Oct...

However I still have my fingers crossed...as I have seen to many times
when a scheduled new thing was delayed...always something seems to
happen unexpected....

have fun....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Morris Dovey
2011-09-09 15:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Morris Dovey
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Can you recommend a reasonably good freeware C development system for
Windows? ...
Since I've had absolutely no desire to develop anything to run under
Windows, I ended up using the Vim editor (in windows gui mode) to write
MSDOS code that I compiled in a command window using TurboC, and later
lcc. ... Morris Dovey
I've had to learn and use whatever the engineer or the company preferred,
from VMS through HP1000, Apollo, Novell, MacOS to Solaris. Usually the cost
and frustration of avoiding Microsoft came to exceed that of using them and
DOS or Windows would slowly and quietly creep onto PCs. Perhaps I could
write physical and data link layer device drivers, but my time was too
valuable cleaning up and detailing rough schematics, laying out and
assembling high-speed SMT circuit boards, and debugging and testing them, a
combination of skills that's rare even in large electronic engineering
firms. They didn't let me play programmer until all that was completed.
I understand how that works - but early in the game (before Windows
arrived on the scene) I made the decision to specialize in "mission
critical" systems where failures would result in loss of life or incur
costs larger than some national economies. Firms who insisted on Windows
platforms automatically disqualified themselves and their projects from
any possibility of success in the mission-critical category, and I've
never had any interest in producing unreliable stuff.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The main problem is that Windows, like English, is the defacto common
language that everyone who seriously wants to do business must accommodate,
before and maybe instead of writing for other operating systems. I can't
even find unix drivers for the Winmodems in my PCs.
They're probably available, but unix folk tend to be a lot more
interested in reliability of result than in the cheapest possible
solution, which is exactly what winmodems are.

FWIW, businesses that have cash flows above a hundred million dollars
per day aren't bashful about using Windows for non-critical tasks like
writing letters or producing Gantt charts for task scheduling, but they
don't seem much attracted to Windows for actual management of that cash
flow.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The customized lab setups I had to maintain when I took a contract R&D job
were generally built around a surplus front-office machine with Windows
already installed. The added hardware and software kept IT from touching
them so I had to be the administrator, and stay relatively current at it,
not wander off into some variant of Debian for my home projects.
One of the beauties of writing standard-compliant C for POSIX
environments was that I could design, code, and test programs on my
inexpensive PC and then move the code over to a client's machine and be
able to depend on it behaving identically (though there was almost
always a performance improvement). Most of my stock exchange code was
developed on $1k Gateway P2 running RH Linux in my apartment - then
installed on the exchange's ~$50 million system for final test and
release - and a year later that same PC system (in a different apartment
a couple thousand miles away) was used to design, code, and test
programs used to debug the circuits of a new SOC in the client's lab.
The SOC was used in a set top box and my client had an initial order for
10 million of the little buggers and didn't want any problem reports
coming from their customer.
Post by Jim Wilkins
As one extreme example an Apple Certified Programmer quoted me three months
to write a "proper" Mac Nubus driver for a custom A/D board I built. Then he
left. I made it do all it really needed to with four lines of assembly code
generated in LabVIEW.
Two good lessons here: [1] there are idiots everywhere, and [2] it's
difficult to beat someone who gives a damn and knows what they're doing. :-)

On your previous post: If you really want to learn C, I'll be glad to
help - but I think e-mail would work better than alt.energy.homepower

Since you've written both assembly code and Pascal, C should be easy and
fun for you.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Morris Dovey
2011-09-09 15:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Morris Dovey
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Can you recommend a reasonably good freeware C development system for
Windows? ...
Since I've had absolutely no desire to develop anything to run under
Windows, I ended up using the Vim editor (in windows gui mode) to write
MSDOS code that I compiled in a command window using TurboC, and later
lcc. ... Morris Dovey
I've had to learn and use whatever the engineer or the company preferred,
from VMS through HP1000, Apollo, Novell, MacOS to Solaris. Usually the cost
and frustration of avoiding Microsoft came to exceed that of using them and
DOS or Windows would slowly and quietly creep onto PCs. Perhaps I could
write physical and data link layer device drivers, but my time was too
valuable cleaning up and detailing rough schematics, laying out and
assembling high-speed SMT circuit boards, and debugging and testing them, a
combination of skills that's rare even in large electronic engineering
firms. They didn't let me play programmer until all that was completed.
I understand how that works - but early in the game (before Windows
arrived on the scene) I made the decision to specialize in "mission
critical" systems where failures would result in loss of life or incur
costs larger than some national economies. Firms who insisted on Windows
platforms automatically disqualified themselves and their projects from
any possibility of success in the mission-critical category, and I've
never had any interest in producing unreliable stuff.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The main problem is that Windows, like English, is the defacto common
language that everyone who seriously wants to do business must accommodate,
before and maybe instead of writing for other operating systems. I can't
even find unix drivers for the Winmodems in my PCs.
They're probably available, but unix folk tend to be a lot more
interested in reliability of result than in the cheapest possible
solution, which is exactly what winmodems are.

FWIW, businesses that have cash flows above a hundred million dollars
per day aren't bashful about using Windows for non-critical tasks like
writing letters or producing Gantt charts for task scheduling, but they
don't seem much attracted to Windows for actual management of that cash
flow.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The customized lab setups I had to maintain when I took a contract R&D job
were generally built around a surplus front-office machine with Windows
already installed. The added hardware and software kept IT from touching
them so I had to be the administrator, and stay relatively current at it,
not wander off into some variant of Debian for my home projects.
One of the beauties of writing standard-compliant C for POSIX
environments was that I could design, code, and test programs on my
inexpensive PC and then move the code over to a client's machine and be
able to depend on it behaving identically (though there was almost
always a performance improvement). Most of my stock exchange code was
developed on $1k Gateway P2 running RH Linux in my apartment - then
installed on the exchange's ~$50 million system for final test and
release - and a year later that same PC system (in a different apartment
a couple thousand miles away) was used to design, code, and test
programs used to debug the circuits of a new SOC in the client's lab.
The SOC was used in a set top box and my client had an initial order for
10 million of the little buggers and didn't want any problem reports
coming from their customer.
Post by Jim Wilkins
As one extreme example an Apple Certified Programmer quoted me three months
to write a "proper" Mac Nubus driver for a custom A/D board I built. Then he
left. I made it do all it really needed to with four lines of assembly code
generated in LabVIEW.
Two good lessons here: [1] there are idiots everywhere, and [2] it's
difficult to beat someone who gives a damn and knows what they're doing. :-)

On your previous post: If you really want to learn C, I'll be glad to
help - but I think e-mail would work better than alt.energy.homepower

Since you've written both assembly code and Pascal, C should be easy and
fun for you.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-09 17:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Morris Dovey
...
Post by Jim Wilkins
Can you recommend a reasonably good freeware C development system for
Windows? ...
...
I understand how that works - but early in the game (before Windows
arrived on the scene) I made the decision to specialize in "mission
critical" systems where failures would result in loss of life or incur
costs larger than some national economies. Firms who insisted on Windows
platforms automatically disqualified themselves and their projects from
any possibility of success in the mission-critical category, and I've
never had any interest in producing unreliable stuff.
I saw the same thing in high-performance hardware. The user console might be
Microsoft (or Apple) but the central processor was more likely a DSP running
RTOS. A standout exception was the HP Infinium oscilloscope that used Win98.
Post by Morris Dovey
Post by Morris Dovey
I can't
even find unix drivers for the Winmodems in my PCs.
They're probably available, but unix folk tend to be a lot more interested
in reliability of result than in the cheapest possible solution, which is
exactly what winmodems are.
That's my home setup, though, recycled office machines saved from the
scrapyard. I bought a Broadband2Go prepaid air card to get them on line to
download large programs and updates.
Post by Morris Dovey
On your previous post: If you really want to learn C, I'll be glad to
help - but I think e-mail would work better than alt.energy.homepower
Since you've written both assembly code and Pascal, C should be easy and
fun for you.
Morris Dovey
Scientific/engineering computing is very different from business
applications, much more intensive and less extensive. I'm looking for a
little guidance to select a development system optimized for driving and
debugging attached hardware rather than writing Web browsers, networking or
database management. QBasic would be fine if it was updated for modern
hardware. I have Visual Basic 5 that I bought on a work+home license on the
drive of a crashed laptop, and the Visual Studio 6 free demo version. The
trouble with them is that they and Windows doesn't allow me unobstructed
access to the I/O ports. That's why I switched from VB5 to DOS + QB and use
them like a massive self-contained microcomputer development system, with
the three LPT1 registers providing the programmable digital I/O pins, and
external A/D converters on the serial ports.

Did you notice the comment at the end of this article?
http://www.chem.hope.edu/~polik/Chem345-2000/bombcalorimetry.htm
"Calorimeter design is very tricky, especially for processes involving very
small energy changes, e.g., protein folding, or energy changes on top of a
large background, e.g., excess heat from "cold fusion". Heat leaks must be
minimized, and all other heat generating processes must be accounted for."

The cheap substitute for a Dewar is a wide-mouth vacuum Thermos bottle.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-09 18:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
Scientific/engineering computing is very different from business
applications, much more intensive and less extensive.
Well, yes and no (it depends) - I've been involved in both and found
that there is a significant intersection of the two sets, and the
discipline and skills that produce quality of result in one tend to work
equally well for the other.
Post by Jim Wilkins
I'm looking for a
little guidance to select a development system optimized for driving and
debugging attached hardware rather than writing Web browsers, networking or
database management. QBasic would be fine if it was updated for modern
hardware. I have Visual Basic 5 that I bought on a work+home license on the
drive of a crashed laptop, and the Visual Studio 6 free demo version. The
trouble with them is that they and Windows doesn't allow me unobstructed
access to the I/O ports. That's why I switched from VB5 to DOS + QB and use
them like a massive self-contained microcomputer development system, with
the three LPT1 registers providing the programmable digital I/O pins, and
external A/D converters on the serial ports.
Hmm. It sounds as if you might do reasonably well with MSDOS and TurboC
V3.0. The Borland IDE feels a bit restrictive, but there's a decent
debugger - and the TurboC makes provision for writing interrupt handlers
and some other low-level stuff that you might like to have. You will
have to deal with the chunky/clunky address space and memory models, but
it's a reasonable (and no-cost) entry to doing the kind of things you've
talked about.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Did you notice the comment at the end of this article?
http://www.chem.hope.edu/~polik/Chem345-2000/bombcalorimetry.htm
"Calorimeter design is very tricky, especially for processes involving very
small energy changes, e.g., protein folding, or energy changes on top of a
large background, e.g., excess heat from "cold fusion". Heat leaks must be
minimized, and all other heat generating processes must be accounted for."
With a nod to all of that, I just want to know if Ni/H will work for a
LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction). If it does work, *then* I'll concern
myself with "how /well/ does it work".
Post by Jim Wilkins
The cheap substitute for a Dewar is a wide-mouth vacuum Thermos bottle.
Sounds reasonable.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
sno
2011-09-15 05:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
New update...sep14

http://pesn.com/2011/09/14/9501913_Rossis_One_Megawatt_Reactor_Gets_A_New_E-Cat_Model/

home unit to be hot water only....no steam...home units expected to be
approved sooner then expected....and on the market sooner....

have fun....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Morris Dovey
2011-09-15 06:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sno
New update...sep14
http://pesn.com/2011/09/14/9501913_Rossis_One_Megawatt_Reactor_Gets_A_New_E-Cat_Model/
home unit to be hot water only....no steam...home units expected to be
approved sooner then expected....and on the market sooner....
Interesting - thanks for the link!

I spent most of the evening designing and coding software to control the
reactor's heater using a single-bit output to switch a solid state relay.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/Electricity/Fusion/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-15 21:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
...
I spent most of the evening designing and coding software to control the
reactor's heater using a single-bit output to switch a solid state relay.
Morris Dovey
I think I have a quick and simple way to tell if it produces excess energy.

Adjust the heater power supply voltage so that the temperature won't exceed
whatever maximum limit you've set with the power left on constantly, ie so
it rises logarithmically toward a safe asymptote. The RMS power input should
be the same as when it's cycling at that temperature, but constant to smooth
out the curve and reveal fine detail.

Fill the reactor with helium and record the temperature vs time curve.
Helium approximates hydrogen's high thermal conductivity but is inert, and
easy to get in balloons

Put in hydrogen and look for deviations from the helium curve.

jsw
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-16 21:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
...> Fill the reactor with helium and record the temperature vs time curve.
Helium approximates hydrogen's high thermal conductivity but is inert, and
easy to get in balloons
Put in hydrogen and look for deviations from the helium curve.
jsw
I wrote a particularly bad explanation that time. Look for any deviation
from a smooth curve:
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/phaseeqia/snpb.html

jsw
sno
2011-10-06 17:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Twelve plus hour test 6 Oct 2k11...in Italy...real time updates as they
are received....

Reports to be out 7th.....

http://rossicoldfusion.com/

server may be slow....

have fun....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Morris Dovey
2011-10-08 14:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sno
Twelve plus hour test 6 Oct 2k11...in Italy...real time updates as they
are received....
Reports to be out 7th.....
http://rossicoldfusion.com/
Thanks for the link! Note the change to the subject. The reports I've
been seeing indicate that the heater was turned off when the reactor got
up to temperature - and the reaction was self-sustaining until Rossi
shut down the reactor some four hours later.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
macpacheco
2011-09-01 11:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by macpacheco
plethora of tests point to the impossibility that his demos were
scams. 30cc reactor producing 3W of output for hours... Impossible for
non fusion means.
Marcelo Pacheco - Not a Physicist - Not a scientist
By that logic the plethora of magicians who can pull a coin out of your ear
proves the supernatural.
I don't know if Rossi is real or fake. I merely pointed out that the demo is
extremely easy to rig, by swapping the hot and cold water lines (under the
sink?) so the audience assumes that the reactor heated the water, which
actually was already hot when it entered.
jsw
If the audience is a bunch of non-technical people, maybe. But if the
audience is composed mainly by scientists that understand calorimetry
and thermodynamics really well, not so much.

My main issue with Rossi's demos is that most of them were not open to
journalists. However I understand he's in this for the money, and that
the competition will be fierce once his device is available
commercially.

The second issue, is the claim that Ni+H fusion is endothermic been
confirmed/debunked ? That could be a show stopper.

It's important to notice that in recent weeks Rossi has made it public
he doesn't use plain nickel, but instead nickel enriched with two
isotopes that produce the best results for his reaction.

Marcelo Pacheco - Not a physicist - Not a scientist - Want to believe
in Rossi - But doesn't believe yet
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-01 14:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
...
-The second issue, is the claim that Ni+H fusion is endothermic been
-confirmed/debunked ? That could be a show stopper.

-It's important to notice that in recent weeks Rossi has made it public
-he doesn't use plain nickel, but instead nickel enriched with two
-isotopes that produce the best results for his reaction.

-Marcelo Pacheco - Not a physicist - Not a scientist - Want to believe
in Rossi - But doesn't believe yet

I have a Bachelor's in Chemistry. The field is so broad that a BS gives only
an overview and the ability to understand the detailed explanations when you
get a job. My research was focused on synthesis and spectroscopic and NMR
analysis of organic compounds, the only isotope I worked with was Deuterium.

Vietnam knocked me off that track but gave me a good education in
electronics. Since then I've worked in R&D on new inventions at small
startups plus a large government research lab, so I have a highly developed
sense for what will or won't work, the credibility and problem-solving
ability of scientists and what projects to join or avoid.

I learned machining and materials science after seeing that scientists and
engineers other than chemists had received a very narrow and specialized
education and often had no hands-on training, like how to solder. I think
the unexpectedly rapid advance of computers pressed hard on the already
packed curricula, since almost everyone learned to write programs.
Mechanical and electrical engineers know almost nothing of each others'
fields while I have considerable experience in both. This means that an
expert in one can easily be mislead in another, though they rarely admit it.
Thermodynamics is a specialty that hardly any of them understands unless
they concentrated on it. Even as chemists we skipped over much of the
intricacy of radioactive decay and quantum mechanics. Still, chemistry
probably came closest to a general education in all the sciences, since it
included a lot of physics such as Statics, Dynamics and electrical theory
and the biology incident to biochemistry.

I've been on the inside, creating lovely staged demos to wheedle more money
from investors to keep the company afloat for a few more months. In that
instance my parts of the machine really did work as well as we claimed, and
we all sincerely believed that the one remaining difficulty could be
resolved well enough to advance from lab to production. It wasn't.

But it was fun and let me add integrated circuit designer to my
accomplishments. I did a custom dynamic memory controller for the DSP
computer in a color scanner.

jsw
you
2011-09-02 21:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by macpacheco
Post by macpacheco
plethora of tests point to the impossibility that his demos were
scams. 30cc reactor producing 3W of output for hours... Impossible for
non fusion means.
Marcelo Pacheco - Not a Physicist - Not a scientist
By that logic the plethora of magicians who can pull a coin out of your ear
proves the supernatural.
I don't know if Rossi is real or fake. I merely pointed out that the demo is
extremely easy to rig, by swapping the hot and cold water lines (under the
sink?) so the audience assumes that the reactor heated the water, which
actually was already hot when it entered.
jsw
If the audience is a bunch of non-technical people, maybe. But if the
audience is composed mainly by scientists that understand calorimetry
and thermodynamics really well, not so much.
My main issue with Rossi's demos is that most of them were not open to
journalists. However I understand he's in this for the money, and that
the competition will be fierce once his device is available
commercially.
The second issue, is the claim that Ni+H fusion is endothermic been
confirmed/debunked ? That could be a show stopper.
It's important to notice that in recent weeks Rossi has made it public
he doesn't use plain nickel, but instead nickel enriched with two
isotopes that produce the best results for his reaction.
Marcelo Pacheco - Not a physicist - Not a scientist - Want to believe
in Rossi - But doesn't believe yet
ALL this is just so much BULLSHIT, unless Rossi can show Neutron
Production, or explain where those Neutrons are going, that they are not
detectable..... Duh... to have FUSION, you have to produce Neutrons....
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-02 23:17:50 UTC
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Post by you
...
ALL this is just so much BULLSHIT, unless Rossi can show Neutron
Production, or explain where those Neutrons are going, that they are not
detectable..... Duh... to have FUSION, you have to produce Neutrons....
This is the abstract:
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=211
I got no response to Direct Download.

According to their claim, to the extent I can read it, the intermediate
state with the absorbed proton (hydrogen nucleus) is either stable or decays
by beta+ emission to the next heavier nickel isotope (A proton becomes a
neutron, the charge escapes as a positron).
http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities/isotopes/copper_61/1a/l5/es/

Fig 1 in their claim suggests almost all of the gamma radiation should pass
through the stainless steel vessel wall.

Morris, notice that they put 40cm (~16") of lead shielding around the ~3/4"
diameter x 40" long reactor. You'll have the EPA and BATFE after you, not
just DHS.

I still think someone could have done all that "research" in a library and
fudged the experiment to fit it. Thermal as opposed to highly energetic
proton capture is unverified, the conclusion is a SWAG.

I'm particularly suspicious because the stepped outlet temperature profile
looks like a water heater running out of stored hot water and switching to
quick-recovery backup.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-03 02:40:13 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by you
...
ALL this is just so much BULLSHIT, unless Rossi can show Neutron
Production, or explain where those Neutrons are going, that they are not
detectable..... Duh... to have FUSION, you have to produce Neutrons....
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=211
I got no response to Direct Download.
I had no difficulty downloading
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Nuclear%20signatures%20-%20Jacques%20Dufour.pdf
and can e-mail it to you if if you'd like.
Post by Jim Wilkins
According to their claim, to the extent I can read it, the intermediate
state with the absorbed proton (hydrogen nucleus) is either stable or decays
by beta+ emission to the next heavier nickel isotope (A proton becomes a
neutron, the charge escapes as a positron).
http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities/isotopes/copper_61/1a/l5/es/
Fig 1 in their claim suggests almost all of the gamma radiation should pass
through the stainless steel vessel wall.
Morris, notice that they put 40cm (~16") of lead shielding around the ~3/4"
diameter x 40" long reactor. You'll have the EPA and BATFE after you, not
just DHS.
So? Let's automate the testing sequence (in progress) and put the entire
apparatus deep enough underground that there's no gamma radiation
hazard. Holes in the ground aren't all that hard to find. :-)

To determine if there's fusion, it's necessary only to proceed until
there is a significant-minimal (for some definition of
significant-minimal) repeatable increase in gamma radiation at a given
pressure and temperature.

To determine if it's self-sustaining, all that's needed is to power off
the heater and watch the temperature and gamma levels for however long
it might normally take the reactor to cool below the ignition levels.

I found a video of Rossi's demonstration for Ny Teknik at
- the reactor was wrapped in
insulation and lead foil only, and Rossi appeared unconcerned. There's a
lot here I don't understand but expect to learn.
Post by Jim Wilkins
I still think someone could have done all that "research" in a library and
fudged the experiment to fit it. Thermal as opposed to highly energetic
proton capture is unverified, the conclusion is a SWAG.
I'm particularly suspicious because the stepped outlet temperature profile
looks like a water heater running out of stored hot water and switching to
quick-recovery backup.
I won't disagree, but this thing is incredibly easy to test. The Ni/H
fusion either takes place or it doesn't - and if it does, then it can
either self-sustain or not. If it self-sustains, then it's worth
discussing and refining.

Too much talk and not enough testing!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-03 13:58:37 UTC
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Post by Morris Dovey
...
I had no difficulty downloading
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Nuclear%20signatures%20-%20Jacques%20Dufour.pdf
and can e-mail it to you if if you'd like.
Forbidden.
Anyway I'm not really qualified to analyze their claims because I don't know
enough about nuclear physics to extrapolate beyond their statements to catch
whatever they missed. A quick look suggests their arguments are internally
consistent as long as you accept their underlying assumptions, which you
intend to test.
Post by Morris Dovey
...
Too much talk and not enough testing!
Morris Dovey
Here is a source of fittings. Grainger may have a store near you.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/stainless-steel-tube-fittings/fittings/plumbing/ecatalog/N-by6

If you don't trust your TIG welding or brazing skills, you can make vacuum
and pressure tight seals with soft copper / nickel / aluminum washers in
flanged or threaded joints.

This lathe has a 1" spindle bore and should be enough to adequately
duplicate Rossi's reactor vessel:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602
A used South Bend Heavy 10 lathe with 5C collets would be ideal, if you can
find a good one. Unlike other industrial lathes they don't require a level
concrete floor as they have a built-in adjustment for bed twist.

The cost of having apparatus made and especially modified several times soon
exceeds the price of entry-level machine tools, which unlike the apparatus
have decent resale or even investment value. Your apparatus is
dollar-a-pound scrap metal.

I'd offer to help if your project had no possible risk of personal injury.
Unfortunately alternative power is all about concentrated stored energy.

Do you have a good vacuum pump to remove air, moisture and oils from the
reactor, and a gauge to measure it?
http://www.aliasaerospace.com/GOES-RTP190(Bakeout).pdf
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=683
I used "semiconductor grade" 91% isopropanol for critical cleaning. Drug
stores carry 91% isopropyl alcohol which might be good enough. You could let
some evaporate on a polished surface to check for residues.

The reason for baking it out is because any volatiles may contaminate the
surface of the nickel. There are many subtle errors to trick a theoretician
without hands-on experience in experimental physics and chemistry.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-03 16:09:58 UTC
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Post by Jim Wilkins
Here is a source of fittings. Grainger may have a store near you.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/stainless-steel-tube-fittings/fittings/plumbing/ecatalog/N-by6
If you don't trust your TIG welding or brazing skills, you can make vacuum
and pressure tight seals with soft copper / nickel / aluminum washers in
flanged or threaded joints.
This lathe has a 1" spindle bore and should be enough to adequately
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602
A used South Bend Heavy 10 lathe with 5C collets would be ideal, if you can
find a good one. Unlike other industrial lathes they don't require a level
concrete floor as they have a built-in adjustment for bed twist.
I have a small Sieg lathe, but plan to have parts made in a local shop -
and although I'm comfortable silver soldering stainless with a Smith
"Little Torch", plan to farm those operations out to friends with
superior skills.

I'm not planning, by the way, to duplicate Rossi's reactor vessel.
Rossi's contribution to this project is limited to his bringing to my
attention that a Ni/H fusion reaction /may/ be possible at some
unspecified pressure/temperature conditions and a plot indicating that
ignition /may/ occur at a temperature as low as 60°C. He and I have very
different application interests and end goals (His goals are primarily
commercial while mine are philosophically rooted). If it should happen
that both development efforts are successful, our devices will be very
different and won't compete with each other for "market" share.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The cost of having apparatus made and especially modified several times soon
exceeds the price of entry-level machine tools, which unlike the apparatus
have decent resale or even investment value. Your apparatus is
dollar-a-pound scrap metal.
I'd offer to help if your project had no possible risk of personal injury.
Unfortunately alternative power is all about concentrated stored energy.
Heh - you've already been helping (just in case you hadn't realized it). :-)

Life itself is risky. We try to pick worthwhile goals and then do our
best to accept and minimize the associated risks. It's a very subjective
call and has a lot to do with individual priorities and risk/benefit
analysis.
Post by Jim Wilkins
Do you have a good vacuum pump to remove air, moisture and oils from the
reactor, and a gauge to measure it?
I have a makeshift vacuum pump (a recycled refrigerator compressor) I've
been using to hold parts for CNC routing. The plan is to re-purpose a
propane tank (BBQ size) and keep that as close to a vacuum as my pump
can manage. No gauge for measuring the vacuum - but I'm confident it'll
provide an adequate/fast pressure drop if/when the control program
decides to kill the reaction.

A portion of my start-up procedure will be to evacuate the reactor tube
and charge it with H2 to 1 atm at ambient temperature, re-evacuate and
re-charge, then repeat the two cycles with heating to 55°C.
Post by Jim Wilkins
http://www.aliasaerospace.com/GOES-RTP190(Bakeout).pdf
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=683
I used "semiconductor grade" 91% isopropanol for critical cleaning. Drug
stores carry 91% isopropyl alcohol which might be good enough. You could let
some evaporate on a polished surface to check for residues.
I have acetone in the shop that I plan to use on the plumbing.
Post by Jim Wilkins
The reason for baking it out is because any volatiles may contaminate the
surface of the nickel. There are many subtle errors to trick a theoretician
without hands-on experience in experimental physics and chemistry.
That pretty describes me and my situation - except that I'm not even a
theoretician. I'm just an ordinary hacker who /really/ wants a
super-compact non-electrical heat source for another project.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-03 23:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Morris Dovey
...
I found a video of Rossi's demonstration for Ny Teknik at
http://youtu.be/x8SeOteFPtM - the reactor was wrapped in
insulation and lead foil only, and Rossi appeared unconcerned. There's a
lot here I don't understand but expect to learn.
...
Morris Dovey
I downloaded (dialup) and watched it and there's something I don't
understand either--the significance. He has 236V at 1.6A (377.6W) heating
water to produce about half the steam that's coming out of my teakettle
(725W on a KAW) right now. NOT 2.5KW worth!

The visible surfaces of the reactors are brazed copper water pipe fittings.
BTDT, but I sanded off the oxide to make it look nice for the customer
afterwards. The inner surface would likely also be coated with dark brown
copper oxide which the hydrogen can reduce to fine metal dust.
http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft/CCA/CCA3/MAIN/REDOXCU/PAGE1.HTM

This is a reasonable source for the excess copper found in the nickel after
running the reactor.

jsw
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-03 23:55:23 UTC
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Raw Message
...He has 236V at 1.6A (377.6W) heating water ...
jsw
Before you put the nickel and hydrogen in, see how accurately you can
account for the measured electrical input power. I suspect you will have a
lot of difficulty finding as much as 70% of it in the heated water at first.

Put all your temperature sensors in a water or steam bath to see how closely
they track, and how little disturbance or mis-placement it takes to throw
off their readings. Mine all agree to <0.5C in the steam inside the teapot.
In an open pot of boiling water they can be 2C apart.

The thermocouple that senses the cover of a soup kettle reads 91-92C when
the water is boiling strongly. It's pressed into an aluminum disk that fits
under the knob. Insulation over it made little difference and was a nuisance
to remove when hot. I have a remote temperature readout above the computer
to monitor pots cooking on the wood stove downstairs.

jsw
Morris Dovey
2011-09-08 13:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jim Wilkins
...He has 236V at 1.6A (377.6W) heating water ...
jsw
Before you put the nickel and hydrogen in, see how accurately you can
account for the measured electrical input power. I suspect you will have a
lot of difficulty finding as much as 70% of it in the heated water at first.
Put all your temperature sensors in a water or steam bath to see how closely
they track, and how little disturbance or mis-placement it takes to throw
off their readings. Mine all agree to<0.5C in the steam inside the teapot.
In an open pot of boiling water they can be 2C apart.
The thermocouple that senses the cover of a soup kettle reads 91-92C when
the water is boiling strongly. It's pressed into an aluminum disk that fits
under the knob. Insulation over it made little difference and was a nuisance
to remove when hot. I have a remote temperature readout above the computer
to monitor pots cooking on the wood stove downstairs.
I'm going to test without water at all, and my current plan (subject to
changes) is to try to measure the temperature /inside/ the reaction
chamber and at its outside surface.

The initial goal is to determine whether or not the reaction can become
self-sustaining. If I can't get it to do that, then the game is over. If
it will self-sustain, then it can be thrown into an insulated tub and we
can measure the rate of heat increase up to the boiling point to get a
reasonable handle on heat production.

I kinda like how you tie together the two technology extremes. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/
Jim Wilkins
2011-09-08 15:11:15 UTC
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Post by Morris Dovey
...
I'm going to test without water at all, and my current plan (subject to
changes) is to try to measure the temperature /inside/ the reaction
chamber and at its outside surface.
The initial goal is to determine whether or not the reaction can become
self-sustaining. If I can't get it to do that, then the game is over. If
it will self-sustain, then it can be thrown into an insulated tub and we
can measure the rate of heat increase up to the boiling point to get a
reasonable handle on heat production.
I kinda like how you tie together the two technology extremes. :-)
Morris Dovey
If it was that easy Marie Curie or Fritz Haber should have encountered it a
century ago. Chemistry as an observational (versus predictive or
theoretical) science was quite mature by 1900. Either Rossi purposely or
accidentally did something different from everyone else, or he is fraudulent
or misled by poor experimental technique. (decision matrix)

I built temperature-controlled test chambers for semiconductor production
testing and saw up close how difficult accurate temperature and heat
transfer measurements can be. I never got the right answers from these
seemingly simple things:
http://www.chem.hope.edu/~polik/Chem345-2000/bombcalorimetry.htm


I fit my methods to the desired results. When the stew pot temperature jumps
from ~60C to ~90C it needs attention. The real intent is to keep the stove
burning hot enough that the chimney doesn't smoke. A thermostatic air inlet
control wouldn't be enough to compensate for wood size and dryness or the
draft variation from outdoor temperature and wind. I have a tapered gauge to
set the opening and a mental table of adjustments.

These thermocouple panel jacks fit the snap-in entertainment center wall
plates Radio Shack sells with only a little whittling.
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=MPJ&Nav=temg11
I have solar panel, 2x thermocouple, TV antenna and phone outlets in one,
all leading to the kitchen computer desk.

jsw
Bob F
2011-08-06 16:14:34 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Tom Potter
Post by CWatters
Post by Tom Potter
Assuming that he is low balling and the cost of a one kilowatt
generator is $5000.00,
at the current cost of about ten cents per kilowatt hour,
it would take 50,000 hours to pay for the generator.
( Maintenance and operating costs would increase the pay out period. )
Post by CWatters
How much did your last oil or gas furnace cost and how many hours do
you expect it to take to "payback" (if ever)?
I suggest to my pal colin.watters
that before he makes an investment
he should do a discounted rate of return calculation
and if he can do better by investing his money
in securities, real estate, etc.
that he should do so.
To compare investing in a new furnace,
one must consider the savings compounded
over the investment period,
and compare this to other investments available to him.
Right! Real estate and stocks are guaranteed investments you can count on? Some
investments are more solid than others. Some are less so.
7
2011-07-30 20:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
http://pesn.com/2011/07/21/9501874_Rossis_Self_Sustaining_One_Megawatt_Reactor
Post by sno
I have been following this for about a year, appears to be a very simple
device, table top size.
These flakes surfaced around January when I heard of them
first time and they were going to sell their machines in April.

Now its August. Has anyone bought one?
Post by sno
Stainless steel pipe packed with granulated nickle (initially claimed
nickle needed to be mixed with proprietary catalyst, claims has
determined optimum nickle granular size)
Water jacket surrounding pipe, with insulation.
Hydrogen pumped through nickle packed pipe.
Two pumps, one for hydrogen one for water.
Water converted to steam (is a steam generator)
Initial energy input needed to heat nickle/hydrogen and trigger reaction.
Reaction is self sustaining after initial trigger.
Had problem with thermal run away causing explosions, which he thinks
have been solved (steam/hydrogen explosion....??)
Has a hypothesis of how it works using conventional physics, basically
fusion of nickle/hydrogen producing copper. (copper has been found in
nickle after running)
Claims has had a generator running for over a year.
Gamma radiation detected while running, no radiation detected after 20
minutes being turned off.
Has been examined by reputable physicists and no external energy inputs
discovered, except for initial trigger energy/pumps (three hundred watt
constant input, kw's in thermal energy, constant output).
Another company has claimed they have built their own (different....???)
device using nickle/hydrogen, seems to verify rossi's claims.
have fun.....sno
Mho
2011-07-30 20:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Mention of anything "Bedini" on this website tells me it is a scam, and a
boring old one at that.

Go away with the fantasy from this scam site.

==============

"sno" wrote in message news:4e33b629$0$2628$***@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...


Article and interview 21 July 2011:
<theoretical garbage snipped>

have fun.....sno
sno
2011-07-30 20:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mho
Mention of anything "Bedini" on this website tells me it is a scam, and
a boring old one at that.
Go away with the fantasy from this scam site.
==============
<theoretical garbage snipped>
have fun.....sno
You my have not noticed the Bedini speculation was from the writer of
the article....and not from anyone connected with the device...

have fun....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
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